Podcast with Paul Moak

[00:00:00] Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Blue Sky Studios Podcast, where we talk to real people who are working in the music industry today. My guest is Paul Moak. Five time Grammy nominated producer, engineer, mixer, songwriter, and musician based in Nashville, Tennessee. Paul's worked with some crazy awesome artists.

[00:00:25]John Paul, white of the civil wars Martin Brewsaugh. Reliant K the blonde boys of Alabama. I mean, come on this, guy's the guy, Paul, thank you so much for being with me today and taking a few minutes to talk to our guests. Thanks for having me. And before we were we, we began recording. I mean, you've got to tell our listeners the crazy connection you actually learned how to play piano.

[00:00:48] If we're not mistaken in the studio that we now record, which is just so bizarre. I'm like 99% sure. I got it. Right. What's even crazier. Is that figured that all out. [00:01:00] Coming across you on Instagram, you know, that is crazy, man. I, I, I'm still kind of reel in about that. So piano, that was your first instrument when you got started.

[00:01:09] Yeah, I started my older sister, took piano and then I started when I was about four, just because I wanted to do what she was doing. And it was with an old lady in downtown. Jackson. And then several years later started with another lady named Janet slogan. That is, was in the house that you're in at studios and pretty much took from her until I found the guitar.

[00:01:31] And then I didn't care about piano anymore. Yeah, that's awesome. And now I've heard, I've heard legends about your pedal boards before. Do you still have a pretty extreme pedal board now that I'm all in one spot and don't really take it around that much? I it's kind of, I've just got a lot of pedals.

[00:01:49] Laying around. Yeah. And, you know, we'll build a board for a time period and then take it all apart and build another one. You know, it's constantly evolving. Yeah. No, [00:02:00] Paul you're at smokestack studios in Nashville, Tennessee. And you guys, if you're listening you can't see the backdrop of Paul's studio, but yeah.

[00:02:08] It is incredible. It looks like a big SSL console. Is that right? Paul? In some crazy good analog gear behind him. Tell us how you got into producing records, man. Yeah. Well, I moved to Nashville from Jackson straight out of high school because honestly my dad, you know, basically. Well, look, if, if you're going to really try to do this, you need to go somewhere where there's an industry.

[00:02:29]Cause I really just wanted to be in a band. I didn't want to own a studio or be a producer. I, in fact, I didn't even know what those were. So he was the one that was like, go where there's other musicians you can find people to play with. And because although Mississippi, you know, has tons of cultural heritage, musically and, and litter, you know, the literary arts and everything at the time I was there, it was kind of a dry spell.

[00:02:52] Creatively. So I moved up here and it was in a bunch of different bands in and out of record deals, kind of got [00:03:00] thrust into the side guy, world, the sideman world, which for folks at home that don't know what that is. You know, if you go see a band like Aerosmith, okay. All five of those guys went to high school together and they formed a band and they're still playing together.

[00:03:16] YouTube is the same way, you know, but that's extremely rare. A lot of times. Like the rolling stones. It's the ones that are still alive that are, you know, the original members of the band. And then they have a couple of hired guys like Chuck Lavelle and the keys, or you know, a lot of bands out of Nashville or solo artists, you know, like Tim McGraw or faith hill have bands of side musicians.

[00:03:41] And basically what that means. You're not a part of the band itself. You're just getting paid to do a job every night. It's a work for hire. And so I kinda got thrust into that world, which is a huge honor, because it basically means, you know, the guys who get hired for those [00:04:00] kinds of tours are the best of the best.

[00:04:01] But the deeper I got into that, the more I realized. It was kind of painting me into one corner where you're just standing on stage playing someone else's parts every night and it has to be consistent in the same. And I'm definitely, always kind of searching after the next creative venture. And so it really just didn't satisfy me on the level that I was looking for.

[00:04:25] And every time I would come home from a tour, I'll be making records of my friends, you know, in someone's basement or. I would get a call for a session in a real studio. And, and they were always these experiences that just kind of took me on a ride. And, and so, you know, I couldn't see all that the forest from the trees, you know, at the time, but my wife was the one that was like, man, you seem to light up when you're in town working and you seem to kind of be drained when you're gone.

[00:04:59] Maybe you should try [00:05:00] pursuing studio stuff. And so I kind of pivoted my career in a big way at that time and really dug into the studio. And really just as a guitar player and it just kind of grew from there to where it was like becoming more, a part of each project I was working on until the point I was producing projects and then had the opportunity to kind of build a studio along the way.

[00:05:25] So this is like the 12th iteration of studio. So that's, that's it in a nutshell. Yeah. W and I think inter iterations, a good word. I feel like every time I walk in, I'm like, okay, here's the next phase of development here? It's like a never ending disease. Maybe it's a good word. Just like, gosh, I can't stop.

[00:05:46] When people ask me, like, Hey, I just want us real simple setup where I can record acoustic and vocal. I'm like be careful because that's how it started for me. You know? So what was it first project where you're like, so you, [00:06:00] so you get home you're, you've kind of, your wife has helped you to see some wisdom, which wives tend to do too is and, and she's like, Hey, there's something here.

[00:06:07] You're feeling that. What was the first project you worked on, where you said, wow, this is really something that I want to spend more time pursuing. I know the exact one I had when I was still touring. I was on a tour that had some drama on the tour, got canceled halfway through and we had to drive back to Nashville.

[00:06:26] And then I was, I found myself out of work for the next couple of months, you know? And so me and the drummer from that tour have found this guy through multiple mutual friends at the time that was a singer song writer. And he had really good songs and really cool voice. And we're like, man, let's get together and make some music.

[00:06:45] And, and it was one of those things where it was like, Shoot first ask questions later or whatever. It's like, we, it was all for art's sake. And, and so we got in and made this record called lost and found the guy's name was [00:07:00] Griffin house and commercially, he got a major label deal out of it and it ended up launching his career.

[00:07:08] He's still a touring artist and this is 15 years later, you know, and, and it really bonded that group of guys. And we all kind of went out and did it. Other things, one of the other guys on that project his name is Ian . He just produced Kacey, Musgraves golden hour record and a incredible record. The drummer will sails tours with drew Holcomb and the neighbors.

[00:07:32] And so it really, it cast a lot of careers off of this one moment. And I'll never forget it. None of us made any money off of it, but it, yeah. Artistically paved the way for a lot of us to say, Hey, this is really what we want to do. That's cool. I, I knew that followed a lot of the records you've been working on.

[00:07:52] I didn't know you worked on that one. That was a really cool record. I remember listening to that and being like, man, the tones in here just really, really interesting. Thank you, man. [00:08:00] Good job. And as far as smoke stack and what you're doing today, give our audience a little snapshot of, of kind of what today looks like for you.

[00:08:08] Are you still producing records or are you just managing the studio or what does that look like? Yeah. Now I'm still full-time producing up until COVID. It was mostly, you know, full length records. I would say probably 70% independent and 30% label based work and that. It shifted over the last 10 years, it was more 70% level work, 30% independent, the way things have gone with this modern era of well to do so much yourself.

[00:08:39] A lot of these artists don't need a label anymore. And so. When I say independent records, it could be records that still make a big impact. They're just not in the traditional label system or whatever. And then COVID hit and, you know, we shut down for a little bit. And then the last year has been really interesting.

[00:08:58] I've been busier than ever, [00:09:00] but it has been, I've only done one full length record since the shutdown started. And I think it's because most artists. You know, until very recently weren't sure when they were going to be able to tour again. So. Were hesitant about pulling the trigger on doing a whole body of work because you don't want it to get lost in this weird time.

[00:09:25] So I think everybody's been kind of holding on to that. And so what they've been doing is, you know, this week I would do two Christmas songs for someone, so they could release some over the holidays and buy some time or a live stream or an acoustic record or whatever. It's been all ancillary stuff. And.

[00:09:45] So it's, it's been fun cause it's been different every day and, you know, someday it will be a live stream thing where it's all about the cameras and the way it looks. And then another day it's just, you know, an acoustic version of a song that I produced before the [00:10:00] shutdown. So we just kind of have said yes to everything and kind of grouped on tight.

[00:10:06] And it's been, it's been honestly a really fruitful season, so I can't complain. I will say. I'm ready to make a full record. What I did was in January and it was so refreshing to like, you know, at the end of the day, I say, all right, we'll see you tomorrow. And we'll continue here and see where else we can take this thing, you know?

[00:10:29] Yeah. And why is that? Why do you like working on whole works like that rather than singles? That's a great question. I think for me, man, the As much as I care very little about. And this, that sounds very like holier than now to say I don't, I, I do care what happens with the record after I'm done working on it.

[00:10:50] But a long time ago, I learned that I couldn't place my value on how a record does after my time in the [00:11:00] studio. So it's not that we don't care about like success, but true success to me is if I'm really. Healthy artists get their vision out into the world. And so if I'm working on a full length project with them, it's only that much deeper I can go in with the artists and kind of really tell the story of who they are through their art, you know, and whether it's a single or a full record, it takes the same amount of energy.

[00:11:27] And work on the front end to get to know someone and develop that sense of trust is a very like working in the studios and very you're bearing your soul in front of people and, and, you know, I'm pushing people to try to. Go and territories that they haven't gone before performance wise and lyrically, and, you know, dare to fail and that's a scary environment.

[00:11:49] So I'd rather be able to do that on a whole work of, of art and have them really be able to tell who they are than just a single, and, you know, it'll [00:12:00] be out tomorrow and gone next week, you know? So, I guess that's where it comes from now. That's cool. Yeah. And, and, and Paul, it sounds like you've had a lot of experience working with both the independent artist and the label artist or band for those who are listening, who are independent, what's something that you wish they knew about label world.

[00:12:21]And I guess what I mean is, I think it's really easy on the independent side where you're struggling. You're trying to make it work. You against them against the world. It feels like to kind of glorify that other side of life. Can you kind of paint a more realistic picture for us of, of label lines?

[00:12:39] Absolutely. This is going to date me and my age, but do you remember a movie called Airheads that came out in the nineties, like Brendan Frazier and the whole gist of that movie was if we can just get a record deal, then all of our problems. As of being a band and having success will go away. You [00:13:00] know, that that getting the record deal is the payoff because it's after that, it'll be easy, you know, and it couldn't be further from the truth these days.

[00:13:10] I would say a record label only creates more work for you. And so as an independent artist, My advice would be don't don't even think about signing with a label until you're at the point where you, you can't not sign with them. And what I mean by that is the best thing that a label can provide today for artists is if you've got a fire that's already started, they can dump a bunch of gasoline.

[00:13:37] But they can't make, they can't start that fire for you anymore. You know, my, my heroes, someone signed them because it was a diamond in the rough and they knew if we can just Polish this up and give it time that it will shine. Right. And it, we, we just do not live in that world anymore. You've got to develop that diamond and get it to shine on your own [00:14:00] and shine, bright enough where a label sees it and says.

[00:14:03] You know, we've got a thousand watt flashlight we're going to put on it. So really it becomes about building your story and building your songs on, on your own and building a fan base. I mean, you have all the that's what's great about now is really, you can take your career as far at, you're not limited by anything because of the internet anymore.

[00:14:29] And so as an artist, I would just keep, instead of saying, when will last on a record deal, it's more, what, how can I keep working on my brand and building what I've got until people can't ignore this any longer? And then you actually have some negotiating power when you come to the table, because you can say, Hey, I already built this.

[00:14:48] So tell me what you're going to do to enhance it. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I'll always try to explain. And maybe this is a poor example, but it's like a business merger. Like if you're coming with a lot of assets, like you [00:15:00] can negotiate. If you're coming to the table, you're like how it's like, well, we're going to take advantage of you, even if they're really good for this other artists and bands who are listening right now, you know, you've seen so many artists and bands that have succeeded over the years.

[00:15:16] What separates those who fail or give up versus those who succeed. Well, I'll tell you this much. It's never the music. It really isn't. Some of my favorite records I've made didn't get the chance that they deserve because of factors outside of the art, you know, everything from the, the band was made up of a husband and wife and they ended up splitting up as we're making the record, you know, to really what the most common one is.

[00:15:48] Is, you gotta have a team. And that team has to believe in the same core mission and all this stuff is like 1 0 1 business level stuff, but we don't operate [00:16:00] in a business world, you know? So really it's usually the team wasn't exactly dialed in to be able to take the artist from, you know, Starting a record to releasing that into the world.

[00:16:16] There's just so many things along the way, like, especially in a label format, you got radio, you got publicity, you got touring, you've got you know, your social media and internet. All of that stuff has to have the same amount of attention. And it's got to go off in the same. Manner for it to all really hit.

[00:16:41] That's why it's really impressive. When you see something happen, like Chris Stapleton or Kacey Musgraves, or, you know, where obviously there's talent there there's songs there, but then you can tell where it kind of like the rocket fuel, you know, detached from the thing. And it [00:17:00] started to orbit because it just hit at the right time.

[00:17:03] And really most bands. Something along the way comes that knocks the wind out of their sales enough to where it's not worth the fight anymore, you know? Yeah. And how to prevent that from happening. I have no idea cause there's so much that's out of our control. Sure, sure. Yeah. It just feels like hearing you talk like there's so much of it.

[00:17:26] That is. I mean, there's so much energy, but there's also just timing, like pure timing of the market, what people wanted that moment, what you're making at that moment, creatively, that timing is certainly important. Absolutely. You know, a good example of that is I had about four or five full length records that all came out during the pandemic.

[00:17:48] And one of them was a big release on Sony that came out March. 12. So I think our 13th, which was literally the, the day that they announced, [00:18:00] like the world is ending and. You know, because it was a major label record. They were too far in the promotion cycle to be able to kind of halt it. And so it came out and hopefully some people heard it, but it didn't get a chance because of this, you know, conundrum that we're in.

[00:18:20] And it's it's like a perfect example of your, your timing reference. Like the timing could not have been worse for them that record, you know? And so a lot of the conversations that I'm having now, because things are starting to open back up and people are like, starting to think about releasing records again, and, and touring is a lot of these artists didn't get to tour their, their record because it came out last year.

[00:18:46] The world has moved on, you know, so a lot of artists and they treat their songs like they're babies. So a lot of artists have had to really come to terms with, I'll never be able to close the chapter of that, that record cycle, the way [00:19:00] that you normally would. I've just got to kind of cut my losses and move on tough things.

[00:19:05] Yeah, sure. Yeah. Well, Paul, thank you so much for taking some time with us today. Where can listeners find out more about you and your study? That's a good one. Probably my Instagram. That's probably where I'm the only place I'm active, which is Paul moat music. I have a website, Paul music where you can get touch with me and yeah, that's about it, Paul.

[00:19:26] Thanks so much for your time, man. Yeah. Thank you. It's an honor. Oh, man, on honor's mind for sure. And thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of the blue sky studios podcast. Have a great day.