Podcast with Sam Moses, Mastering Engineer at Moses Mastering (Nashville, TN)

[00:00:00] Welcome under the blue sky studios podcast, where we speak with real people in the music industry who are spending their days working on their dream job. I want to welcome Sam Moses to the show today. Sam, thanks so much for being with me, man. Hi. Thank you for having me. It's a gift to be here. Oh man. I appreciate you.

[00:00:22] And, uh, we're excited to hear from you today. Uh, I do want to let you guys know a little bit about Sam. Sam. Moses is a mastering engineer in Nashville, Tennessee, and owns Moses mastering, which you guys will get to hear about today. He focuses on bringing peace of mind to every project he works on and calling records done, which.

[00:00:38] In my experience is a pretty hard thing to say. So thank you for doing that. Sam, uh, SIM has mastered records for artists like Chris Brown fly by night, Billy Ray Cyrus haste the day Matthew Mayfield, 10th Avenue North and Kari Jobe to name a few. Uh, Sam, thank you so much for your time today. I want to start in a weird spot.

[00:00:56] Tell us about mix with the masters in France. [00:01:00] Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. So I did mix with the masters. Like in the, I call it like the OG days. Cause it was like year two, I think for them maybe. So it's been like nine or so years ago. And uh, I ended up going with Joe breezy, which he does like a bunch of rock basically, and kind of like some weird albums, anything from like Chevelle to nine inch nails.

[00:01:26] He's done the biscuit and um, at the time. The whole approach to mix with the masters was like, I work in like top 40 sound, basically like pop CCM country, R and B rap. And I had been probably three to four years into my mastering journey and I was mixing as well. And I wanted to actually. Throw myself into a situation that would force me to look at music totally differently.

[00:01:55] So I picked Joe because Joe exists in a world in a genre [00:02:00] of the industry that I knew nothing about, about, and anytime I have found something to be valuable or wisdom in the music industry, it's not normally come from speaking with someone who approaches something or. Puts things in a framework in a totally different way that I've never thought about.

[00:02:16] I think that's how you learn the best or grow as a human in general is being willing to say, I wonder how Joe thinks about music when he's recording his dog. In a tool album and also like making someone yell into a toilet bowl to get echoes while he's recording it. And I'm saying these things, because these are things he does like to make these iconic sounding records.

[00:02:41] And I feel like in the top 40 world, my approach is, you know, it's always usually very clean and precise and like put together and perfection and I just. I'm kind of a unique color full person. I'll say even into my gear selection, which has kind of made my sound of [00:03:00] picking things. I just really like whether it's mastering great or not.

[00:03:03] I like basically colors like paintbrush colors. And with Joe, I thought what a weird experience it will be to be put in with 12 other guys, basically. Who are obsessed with like Chevelle and these records that I literally kind of know nothing about outside of like, I know who these bands are and what kind of genre they kind of fall in.

[00:03:25] But I thought this would be really good to expand my mind on how other people approach music. Because at the end of the day, for me, like music, It's all about mindset and approach more than anything like we all, I think we all know, hopefully like the gear is just an extension. It's just a tool, but what really matters is, you know, your ears and experience how you interpret music and how you can communicate with people well, and learn how to communicate, interpret what they're telling you and marry that into a Sonic reference slash master at the masculine stage.

[00:03:56] So France was incredible. Like. I got thrown into like [00:04:00] a bunch of rock metal heads. And I'm like a Che at the time, probably like a J crew wearing nice, like put together clean cut guy. And it's like all these rockers from literally all over the world. Like Hong Kong, Australia, UK. I was the only American outside of Joe.

[00:04:17] Wow. So it was like this beautiful, melting pot that. Just blew my mind. Cause I grew up in the middle of Illinois, like cornfield and I've traveled kind of on and off, but nothing like going by myself, cross world to the South of France in the middle of a village where they milk the cows and that's the Milky drink and like is literally like this most iconic picture Rask town that makes with the masters in it.

[00:04:44] And if you have the chance to go, I highly encourage it's worth paying the money it's worth applying to see if you get in. And actually going, as opposed to just watching the videos online now that they offer. But yeah, I, I went there and I kind of got my world Brock just culturally [00:05:00] and one of like the biggest.

[00:05:02] Probably takeaways was, um, for me anyway, was just watching Joe and Andrew chefs was actually there as well, finishing up his, uh, he was like mixing an album in studio B the whole time we were there. So he would come in and help teach us too. So it was like a two for one kind of deal, which was fun. Yeah.

[00:05:18] That's, that's pretty, that's a pretty good deal right there, but I just remember like the most. Biggest piece of advice I got is like, I opened up my session and Joe was working on it with me. And like we played at top to bottom and it was like a pop song and we got done and everybody was like, this sounds terrific.

[00:05:34] Like what, why are you here? And Joe is just like, so he's so sweet. But he just was like, I was bored the whole time. I was like, it's too good. It's like year two, like it was too clean, too good, too flat. To be like, there was nothing about it that made him want to hear it again or go, I love that. Or that was so weird.

[00:05:53] Like I hate that, you know, and he spent the whole week and I feel like Andrew, similar Lee, and this is my [00:06:00] interpretation of how I took everything. So maybe they would say differently, but the whole week I felt like, you know, They were just telling me, you need to forget presets, forget foundational things, and you need to like figure out what does essentially Sam bring to the table.

[00:06:13] Like, what is your sound like? You're good at regurgitating sound. You can nail this top 40 sound, but you have nothing that's like memorable. And that was like kind of a big pride ego thing. Cause at the time I think when you start, people are super focused on like, does this translate to my car? You know, like, and that's kind of like, people are obsessed.

[00:06:31] Like, does this sound good on an iPhone? You know, eventually I feel like you get to that point, it's like you have the mechanics down. Like, yes, it translates to the car. Now does that matter? Like, why are you going to replay it again? You know, is it doesn't have anything in it that has life to it, energy to it, emotion to it.

[00:06:48] Anything contrasting that makes you go, huh? That was the chorus. This is the verse, you know? Or does it just sound really good? And that gets into the weeds too, of like a moving target of what is good sonically, like, [00:07:00] you know, so that's a whole other thing, but that's yeah, that's kinda my France thing of like, you know, I would encourage everybody to really go out and try new things because.

[00:07:12] You'll take those experiences and it'll expand you to become a better engineer, songwriter, producer, wherever you're at, but you need to always be expanding and growing. I feel like in your career and in life, otherwise you get stuck and then. People pass you up who are willing to expand and grow. So that's fine.

[00:07:28] That's great. But yeah. Thanks for launching in that story, man. That's exciting. Uh, let's rewind a little bit and give, give folks a snapshot of how you got to mastering. And then we're going to dive in a little bit to what mastering is in a few minutes. Sweet. So I kind of got into mastering on accident. I grew up.

[00:07:46] Kind of in a, my dad was in a bluegrass band and he toured and cut a couple albums and was never, um, famous, I'll say, but famous to me and, um, really kind of grew up around music, understanding that people make [00:08:00] records and whatnot. And then in college, um, I started playing guitar. I was probably into high school and I started a band with a couple of buddies and we were in a pop rock band.

[00:08:10] And after college, I basically. Um, we all said, and this is super long story short, but said, let's move downtown Chicago. Let's cut an album with this producer. And let's like, do the band thing to her. Let's give this thing a go. I think we had a one like one radio contest. And so like locally in a town of like 20,000 people.

[00:08:28] So we thought, Oh, well, we'll. We'll just do that again on a larger scale and be famous, then there's some easy, easy formula, right? That was all it took. It was like, Oh, we want to radio Candace, let's move our whole lives and cut an album and become a band. That's literally the fundus of being naive and young of saying, sure, let's do it.

[00:08:46] And so we went and got an album with pretty good producer and mixed, and I got to watch it be mixed. I got to watch it be mastered. I remember very distinctly from mixed a mastering, getting our album back and being like. I don't think this is [00:09:00] better. And I remember just kind of feeling like the mixes were better.

[00:09:04] I remember doing what I hate what people do, but I understand it. And like I would drop the mixes in the logic and compare what I foam mastered versus guys master not understanding anything about what's about to happen to my music, which is, it needs to go to a million different places and translate, not just sound good in my.

[00:09:20] Basement of my Chicago house. So I kind of, you know, got curious about it then. And basically our band kind of took off within a few months and then it also kind of collapsed within a few months of just typical band. Like we have all had different ideas and we got asked to move to Nashville from Chicago, from paradigm who wanted to manage us and we just couldn't all agree to move together.

[00:09:44] And so then we ended up. Breaking up. Like, that's just kinda how it happened. I had just gotten married. And so this led me to mastering because I went back to the mixer. Mastering guys basically said like, Hey, I was kind of banking on being a famous rockstar. [00:10:00] And, um, now that's not going to happen as now, but I remember we paid you guys all this money upfront and it didn't matter if we got famous or not, or, you know, famous, right.

[00:10:09] You got the same rate. And I thought that's a good gig. Like that's just newly married. I was like, instead of like playing, you know, clubs shows, house blues, whatever, and you know, all that and making. Some money, but not a ton. I was just like, these guys are making a killing, you know, is what I thought at the time.

[00:10:27] And so I kind of went back to them and just said like, can you, can I be the fly on the wall, the shadow, you know, the, the kid that sits in the back and silence and, and they said kind of Yan. So I did that. And then after about a year that I moved back home with my wife to our hometown. Cause we just. I couldn't afford Chicago at the time.

[00:10:46] And I worked at a studio there and that's where like I've got huge and hip hop and rap. I was making beats, I was ripping beats and recording people and mixing and mastering in. That was one of those. Like they come in with $60. They're like we got three [00:11:00] hours, you know, I was making like 20 bucks an hour.

[00:11:01] Do an engineer and they're like, we need the whole song done, like record mix master three hours out. Like, that's all I got. So I just got like really into watching the senior engineer there who own the studio. Like his view of mastering was like an L two with an L two and an Oxford limiter and an L two.

[00:11:18] It was just like two DDB, two DB off to DDB off, et cetera, et cetera. And then it was really loud and kind of clipping and worked really well for rap. And I remember thinking, once again there, I was like, man, they're paying him like 60 bucks a song and I'm watching him do this in like five minutes. And I was like, this is the best money you could ever make.

[00:11:36] Like, why doesn't everybody be a mastery engineer? So that was really like, you could tell. I was like heavy focused on money early on because I was dead broke and student loan debt married. So I. I literally kind of was like, I'm going to focus on mastering, like mixing and mastering seem to pay a lot.

[00:11:53] Mastering seems to pay the most. And so I started to like read books on mastering and I started to [00:12:00] just apply my own kind of skills and approach. And that's kind of how it got started. I mean, this was like 10, 11 years ago and I just kind of started learning how to master and call records done. And within that, I learned a huge amount of like wisdom that.

[00:12:17] In order to really be able to call a record done, you need to know what mixes sound like, and you need to know what finished record sound like, and you gotta have a catalog of music in your head. So, but that's kinda how I got started. Like, I don't want to jump too far ahead and what we're going to talk about, but that's kind of like my, my start mastering was like stumbled into it kind of on accident.

[00:12:37] And then I was just like, I think I can make a lot of money, which sounds cool at the time. Like, so I could pay off some student loans, buy groceries for my wife and I, so, Hey, that's important too. That's a great thing to do. So you're in Illinois, you've moved around a little bit today. You're mastering records in Nashville, Tennessee kind of bridge that gap for us.

[00:12:59] What happened [00:13:00] between Illinois and where you are today? So in Illinois, I ended up moving. We moved to West Palm beach, Florida, but the straw that broke the camel's back was I was mixing a hip hop song that, um, basically this guy wanted an eight Oh eight changed like four different times. He sent me the wrong eight Oh eight each time.

[00:13:22] And after like the fourth time, mind you, I'm making like a dollar an hour at this stage. Like the amount of time we've spent on this song. And, uh, I basically said like, I need more money. Like I need to be paid more. Like I need 20 more bucks. You know, that's what I think I was asking like $20. No, not thousands of dollars.

[00:13:38] Yeah. 21 years. Yeah. And the dude basically was like, No you're going to change it or like, I'm going to send my, like my, my buddies, like my gang, basically to your apartment, we know where you live, we'll bring guns. And like, we'll basically like, you're going to change it. Like they threatened my life. And, um, after that I was like, well, I'm out.

[00:13:57] Like I'm done. I'm not working on the song anymore. And they were [00:14:00] like, no, you don't want to do that. And then like within a week or so my wife and I just kind of chat and I was like, this is not going great. Like I wasn't making the money. Yeah. I was like, if this is what is required to be in the music industry, like, you know, what's crazy.

[00:14:16] And maybe that's more one of my craziest stories, like being threatened with my life about an eight Oh eight, but I just was like, we need to leave. Like, I need to take a break from Brad. I need to take a break from this like kind of an alcohol and amateur scene is how I view it now. Of guys who just liked to make songs and then, you know, like go listen in their car and get high.

[00:14:35] That's where that's what they did. And it was just one of those things where I was like, I need to get a salary job. Like I, this is stressing me out, done a couple of years of like the studio assistant making no money. I've learned a lot, but like, I need a break. Like I was just exhausted and just tired of the bull crap of dealing with rappers, honestly at the time.

[00:14:55] So I got a job, uh, at a church down in Florida, but he was [00:15:00] at, and I started doing like audio front of house creative. And then I worked at a studio on top of that. That was ran by. Uh, Danny Zayas, who was in 10th Avenue North originally, um, for the first couple of albums and he toured with them and then he got off the road and started his own studio in West Palm, which is like a teaching studio.

[00:15:18] And when I met him, we just hit it off and he let me do like an artist. He wanted to do an artist development program. And so he was like, would you head up the arts development program? I'll help write songs, but like you produce engineer. Mixmaster like, You know, and we'll just, we'll make a studio room, like couple of rooms to track in at his teaching place.

[00:15:35] So I was like, that sounds fun. Let's do it. So for the, I was in West Palm for two years, basically working two jobs, like worked at the church, which was probably not the best fit for me. Cause I knew I still wanted to make records. And this was kind of just like bridging the gap of figuring out. I can't be back where I was.

[00:15:52] So we'll, we'll take a salary job and then I'll get studio experience on top of that. So I did that for a couple years. And during that time [00:16:00] is when I went to mix with the masters and that's, you know, circle back is by the end of the week, basically Joe and Andrew both were kind of saying like, Hey, you can do this, but you need to really put yourself in a position to learn from the people who make the records you like, you know?

[00:16:15] And that, that really changed my life because I felt like in West Palm, I had come become kind of this big fish in a small pond, which didn't really even mean anything like being the big fish down there doesn't mean much. Like you just. And it's no disrespect to that area at all, but there's just not like a museum, big music scene there.

[00:16:32] You know, people love music, but they don't really care about how it's engineered, you know, and the, the things we nerd out about I'll say in Nashville or where you're at. So I, um, when I got back from mixed with the masters, I. I put in like my two weeks at the job in Britain, I, my wife's her name's Brett.

[00:16:48] We just were like, let's move to Nashville. Like, let's give this a go. And we just packed up and moved and did like the riskiest thing, which is no jobs lined up, no [00:17:00] living lined up. We just were like, Hey, Phil and Kate were our best friends here. Um, and feels like a touring drummer, which doesn't mean anything for the studio side of things.

[00:17:09] A lot of people think that, but. Session players don't really get you work on the mastery level, but they let us crash at their house. And, um, I started basically almost immediately doing, uh, I had a country song to do that from a country guy in West Palm beach. And I basically said, Hey, I'm moving to Nashville next week.

[00:17:29] I can get you like the best country players, if you give me a couple of weeks. And so I got connected with a studio here in town called Hartwell studios owned by Michael Hughes, who was one of my favorite people in the world. And he was like the first person in town to give me a shot and let me, you know, engineer.

[00:17:44] And he helped produce and got a bunch of killer players on it. And, you know, after that, it's kind of like, I don't want to make it sound so simple. Cause there's 1 million things that have come up in the last eight years that are really difficult, but. It was just like, Him saying, Hey, you're, you're pretty good at [00:18:00] this.

[00:18:00] Like, you're good at mixing. You're good at mastering. And do you want to start, like, helping me with like my, he did a bunch of pub work, like Sony and stuff, and he just was like, do you want to like help take on the mixing mastering? And I said, sure. So I just kind of started doing that. I would say full-time, but it wasn't full time.

[00:18:18] I devoted all my time to it, but I wasn't getting paid for right. That's kinda how it started, like Nash, you know, it's relational and that's how I got to Nashville, which was just like, I need to put myself in a position to learn from the people that I think make the records that I really enjoy. And that's special like to go do that.

[00:18:40] Absolutely. And, and I think one of the things it's easy when you're looking hindsight and saying, Hey, we took a risk, we made this move, but in that moment, I'm sure for you and your wife had didn't quite. Mixed with mixed with excitement. There was a lot of, yeah, a lot of other emotions. If you could go back and talk to Sam back then, [00:19:00] like what advice would you give to him so much?

[00:19:03] I mean, the first thing I would tell me is, Hey dude, you need to go study business. Like if you do not understand music and that the music industry is a full blown business, that, that your success is heavily dependent on your understanding of how people. Work. Like I tell a lot of people, like at mastering stage, I am a people manager, like more than almost anything I manage people's expectations.

[00:19:30] People's fears, people's concerns. You've got ANR, you've got the lead singer's wife. You've got some friend who heard the album early and everybody's Chi-Ming in on what they think is best for it. And at the mastering stage, we are managing expectations. And hopefully bringing peace of mind to people and then also sonically getting everything cohesive enough to where it feels like it's going to translate really well and represent their envision.

[00:19:56] So, number one, Sam, go read every business book you can [00:20:00] and learn about taxes and billing and invoices and how people conduct themselves on a professional level. Number two would be. Go get a therapist like immediately because the music industry is like a hot, it really is a hot mess of, um, I think you get a heavy saturation of introverted creatives and it's how we create not everybody's that way, but a lot of great art is created from kind of sad people like.

[00:20:27] I've heard it said before. I'm trying to think of the quote. I can't, I'm gonna butcher it, but it's almost like all the best art has been, been created out of like the worst situations. Like, unless you're like depressed, suicidal, heartbroken, divorced, cheated on you're going to have a hard time making good art that people care about.

[00:20:46] Like, that's kind of a reality of when I think about some of my favorite songs, they are heavily laced with mental illness essentially, or trauma. And I'm not saying you have to have that to be a good [00:21:00] artist at all. Cause there's plenty of happy songs too, but there's just a lot of emotion within art in general and music.

[00:21:07] And you've got people being vulnerable and basically spilling their soul in these songs. And most of them are real. Like people are sharing their intimate moments that they can't say, but they'll sing it because it's more comfortable. And so for me, like you find a lot, a lot of people like, you know, Nashville loves to drink alcohol, Nashville loves smoke pot, Nashville like loves to party.

[00:21:28] Like we're a party town and it's really easy to get caught in that because it seems like that's how you network here, uh, really is kind of just this, like chasing your tail situation, um, of spending 50 bucks on old fashions. Getting drunk with people and then realized the next day they don't remember that.

[00:21:44] They said they were going to send you a song like it's, you know, and with an all that, I think, you know, the therapist thing for me is like, you've got to have a unbiased person. That's not in the music industry. Like seek out an expert who can help you manage all these [00:22:00] new things. Because for me, You know, a lot of people just focus on, I need to like sonically be able to compete, but like I'm saying, you got to deal with people 24 seven.

[00:22:09] You gotta have yourself down. You've gotta be taking care of yourself first so that you can serve others better. And a lot of people don't do that. A lot of people approach the music industry. Like I'm asleep at the studio. I'm going to burn the candle from both ends. I'm going to just outwork everybody.

[00:22:25] And usually that just ends up with people having mental breakdowns eventually, or they pick up a drinking habit, like I've, I've watched it. And like, I was headed that way slowly and you don't realize it, but then Nashville culture is like, Oh, it's 10:00 AM downbeat. Let's take shots of Jack. And you're like, sure.

[00:22:41] Like all of a sudden you just find yourself like getting drunk at 10:00 AM in a country session. Cause that's what you do. Like, so it's. You have to, um, for me, I was not mentally prepared to, I guess, be myself and tell people, Hey, I'd like to engineer and not be drunk. Like, you know, I would like to not have a [00:23:00] hangover at 3:00 PM today.

[00:23:01] Like I got to go see my wife after this session. And I think it's all of that, of like the real music industry. If you're in a music town and I've been to LA too, for a while, I've moved. I've never lived there, but I've been out there a bunch and land in New York, Miami. You know, it's just really easy to find yourself compromising on things that you thought you'd never compromise on.

[00:23:22] And you got to have an expert, like a therapist or someone you can count on. I would advise like someone professional who can say, Hey, why do you feel the need to get hammered at 10:00 AM? You know, to do your work? Like, are you insecure? You scared. They're not gonna like you all these things. So business.

[00:23:40] Therapists, the third thing would be doubled down on your sound. Like whatever you think a record should sound like, whether you're songwriting producing, mixing, mastering, you should go with that, go with your gut because that's going to become the thing that is your selling point. That'll be your unique thing that makes you stand out over anybody else.

[00:24:00] [00:23:59] Circles back to mix with masters like Joe and Andrew make albums totally different, but they're both super successful. Every guy in that room approached a kick drum. Totally different. And almost every sound we all pulled during that week of recording bands, the kick drum worked in the context of how they heard the music or how we heard the drum kit.

[00:24:17] So that's the third thing is I was chasing people sound. I was trying to beat other mastering engineers and shootouts, and it just kind of left me feeling like, man, I just feel like I'm not being myself. I'm being like not a fake person or two face, but how do I hear records? And do I trust that there are other people that also like the way, you know, I make records and it's not all about me.

[00:24:37] It's about finding people that you kind of gel with and, you know, kind of sonically, you know, vibe together. So those are the three things like business therapy and trust your gut and know that most people will not like your work, but you only need like, 20 or 30 clients to do really well in this industry is what I've learned.

[00:24:57] And I think so many people focus on like thinking I need to [00:25:00] have thousands of clients, or I need to be super famous and all that just like maybe it'll happen or maybe it won't, but. You just got to focus on finding people that you're a really good fit for and just kind of go here's what I can do. Can, you know, does this fit into the vision you have?

[00:25:15] And if they're like, no, then you say, all right, great. You know, I move on to the next person. So those are my three things long-winded but those are the three things. No, I love this. And, uh, you guys heard it here first. That'll be a in Sam's book. That's coming out in three years. Uh, Sam, we expect you to go, uh, begin writing that right now.

[00:25:33] My book is in the process. I kid you not a real talk. That's awesome, man. Congrats. It's called forgetful people and it's called, uh, the subtitle is a guide to reality in the music industry, man. That's exciting. Ne literally I have a guy in town. Who's another mastering engineer who is actually. Uh, has a degree in writing in his family is they're professional writers.

[00:25:55] And we've been working through the book the last six months, like right. I've got [00:26:00] chapters, I've got, I have it all written, it's written, it just needs, I have 200 typed pages, which is in book format, like 400 pages. So it's way too much. But. We're like powering through it. So that is so exciting. Sam, congratulations on that.

[00:26:14] Thank you. It'll be a physical book. So if you're lifting, I need you to save $20. It'll also be audio, but I'm going to charge probably about 20 bucks is what it looks like. Once I get the physical copies made from the. The pressing company I've been talking to. So, but yes, it's coming. Love it, man. Uh, well look, Sam, we are running short on time and I do want to give you a chance to talk about mastering for a moment.

[00:26:39] I think one of the things that I've encountered over the last 10 years is probably the most misunderstood part of the process is mastering. So just for a moment, can you unpack, uh, for artists and bands, what is mastering? What do you do. Yeah. So, I mean, at its core to me, it's, it's calling a record done.

[00:26:59] So when I [00:27:00] say that it's, it's knowing. Where the mixes are and knowing what a finished record sounds like, and you learn that by experience, but also consuming tons of records that are in the market that you're competing in. So everything I'm saying is from the approach, like you want to be a famous band essentially, or like Spotify, playlist, you know, w or radio.

[00:27:21] So. It's my job to listen to the mixes, listen to, you know, the producer or the band or whoever the labels, sometimes just the label that sends me mixes and they express either concerns or they just say, do my thing or whatever. And it's my job to interpret what they're saying and kind of, you know, Interpret that into what that means for me mastering.

[00:27:44] So I, that's kind of it at its core. Like I bring peace of mind to people because I'm able to tell you at this stage doing, you know, 12 years mastering and tens of thousands of songs is like, I just have consumed way more mixes and put out way more records than [00:28:00] anybody else at any other stage. And so I am by default, I'll say qualified to be able to say like, This mix is, is basically done.

[00:28:09] And we just kind of bring it up to level and sometimes we don't even need to adjust it, which is in my opinion, the most ideal case, which is, you know, you send me mixes that are basically all, you know, gonna translate well, based on your vision and the market you want to compete in. And I then say, yeah, you actually have done it.

[00:28:26] Right. And this is correct. And this will translate well. And into the markets to compete in, you know, based on your goals. So that's kind of, to me, how I simplify it, there's no, like, to me, dark art to it, there's no mystery to it. Everything I do is very like mastering techniques. I just think people get confused about mastering because it's a lack of experience.

[00:28:48] Like it's really hard to finish a record if you've only made 10 songs in your life or listen to 10 mixes, like, sure. Why would you know how to. Call a record done. If you've only made [00:29:00] 10 songs, you know, and that's kind of what I tell, you know, band sometimes bands like, well, we'll just bastard ourselves.

[00:29:07] You know, why should we trust you over our years? And, and it's that? It's like, okay. So if you're a band, you have a great career. Maybe you make five albums, you know, Indian do 10 songs each. So it's 50 songs. Well, I'll work on 50 songs in two weeks. Like, you know, you'll work on 50 songs over 15 years. So the amount of experience that, you know, I bring to the table and I think any good mastery engineers, a, they have a great catalog of music in their head and they know what finished record sound like.

[00:29:37] They're up on the trends of. What is popular, you know, and I'm, I'm speaking from my approaches. Like I do a lot of top 40 type stuff, but you've got to know where you're competing and what your goal is for the record. And a lot of bands and labels. Can't verbally say that, you know, and that's kind of where they either defer to me, or I like to help bands even figure out why are we making [00:30:00] this record?

[00:30:00] Like, what's the point? Like, is it to get Spotify playlist? Is it to, you know, get, build fans is all of the above. And so. I kind of, you know, I feel like I'm, I'm a therapist almost, you know, that's kind of what I bring to the table is bringing peace of mind to people and helping them see that, Hey, this record is either done or this record needs some adjustment and then it'll be done and I can, I'm willing to sign off and put my name on it and tell you guys, or gals that this is going to compete against Justin Bieber against Chris Brown, against so-and-so, you know, because that's your competition for most people.

[00:30:35] And, um, that's kind of. You know, that's kind of mastering. And then there's a bunch of Sonics of like, you know, ease queuing and compression and loudness and whatever, which is a whole other day. But I think the main thing or great mastering engineer does is bring peace of mind and know when to do things.

[00:30:52] And more importantly, when not to do things to the record. Sure. Yeah. You know, and that just takes a lot of time and communication with people. [00:31:00] So. Right. And it's absolutely. Yeah. And is it clear to see while you're successful seeing I'm like, I think if you, that answer of your paradigm in that approach is so much more powerful than when I asked you that question.

[00:31:15] You're like, you know, I just eat Q the mid, sometimes put a little smiley face. Sound on it. So, no, man, I love that. Thank you for unpacking it for our listeners. I feel like that's very insightful and very helpful. Last question, Sam, uh, moving into the next three to five years. I mean, we have seen so much rapid change with the music industry in the last say, 20 years.

[00:31:38] What do you feel like is coming down as far as trends and things like that, that we should know about in the next three to five years? So that's a wonderful question. And I'm going to give you my heavily bias answer, so it's not gospel or anything. But what I think is going to happen is we are going to see a heavy shift into augmented reality and virtual reality.

[00:31:58] Like there's going to be a [00:32:00] heavy focus. You're already seen it with NFTE art or NTF NFTs, where people are making digital pictures, uh, Kingsley owned just. Released their album digitally like that with NFTE are included. Um, if you don't know what NFT is, just go Google it be way easier than me trying to watch an explanation, but essentially it's digital art and audio is going to move more into augmented reality experiences, especially with COVID.

[00:32:27] If, uh, you know, I think COVID is on its way to being taken care of, but I have a feeling we're going to have things come up. You know, over and over again, moving forward, not in a negative way, but I think this made us more aware and it might. Put us a bit on edge. That's just, I don't want to get a politics with it.

[00:32:45] That's just my opinion of what I've seen, but I think there's going to be a heavy focus on people needing to evolve into figuring out how do I do a mini concert in virtual reality for my hundred fans? How do I include people more on the process? Maybe you [00:33:00] do augmented reality where people can come and experience.

[00:33:03] You know, you making music while also there's an augmented reality part of it, but I don't know what it is, but I know that's coming down the pipe. I hear rumors about it, uh, within the town and within labels. And I know people are heavy into visuals for the next few years, you know, you see it with tick-tock and also, I mean, we're kind of in this weird, everything is just moving very digital, you know, you've got clubhouse, the app, which is super only audio focused.

[00:33:30] You've got tick-tock, which is heavy. Visual focused with trends. Tik TOK is definitely the name of the game for the next three years. In my opinion, labels are breaking artists via Tik TOK. They're testing out songs on Tik TOK. Um, it's easily something you have to be paying attention to if you're an artist, whether you like it or not, you need to be doing Tik TOK.

[00:33:50] If you are not willing to adapt to these new social platforms that are going to change every year, every couple of years, you're gonna have a really hard time being an artist. [00:34:00] And we can debate if that's good or bad, but I'm just telling you, that's what we're in right now. We are in a very fast moving, viral based, you know, Basically culture right now, and labels are taking advantage of these new social platforms and realizing, Hey, we can, labels are literally taking people's songs before they're out on Spotify and testing them on tech talk that's going on right now, where they will see is anybody going to do a dance to this?

[00:34:25] Is anybody going to, can we partner with anybody? Who's, tick-tock famous to have them do an exclusive dance, you know? And then within that, this circles back to the NFT where you can see. Well, that limited edition, first dance that some famous Tik TOK dancer did to your song. So you can take that snippet, say, this is one of one.

[00:34:43] Then we're deleting the video. We're selling it for $12,000. And people are doing that already. Like people are already selling they're shooting video to audio or a band is shooting them, performing live and saying, this is the only copy you can buy the rights to it. And then I delete it after you buy it.

[00:34:58] Yeah. That's [00:35:00] where we're at. That's literally what's already going on. So it's only going to get bigger. But that's where I see everything moving in the next three to five years, we're going to have a huge blend of more AI technology, more, you know, plug-ins being AI oriented. I don't at this stage a few years ago, I was a little concerned, but I really think as humans, we're going to learn that we actually, I mean, we already really love AI.

[00:35:25] You know, we have an iPhone, which is AI all over the place, but I don't see us becoming like cyborgs. I see us really enjoying the augmented reality. I see people enjoying virtual reality shows, you know, I long for the day, honestly, where I've augmented reality contacts. And instead of my mastering gear in front of me, maybe it's just an, a warehouse somewhere and it's all sinked up to like, I'm just looking down at a virtual desk, you know, that has my gear in it, but it's not actually there.

[00:35:53] So I can like. Not be a hundred degrees in my room with all the like, you know, or they've [00:36:00] emulated it well enough by then to where, you know, you put on your headset, you look down, it's an SSL console, you know, and it sounds just like it. So that is in my opinion, where we're headed. Whether or not, you like it, I it's up to you, but that's what people I'm already seeing it.

[00:36:16] You know, one of the benefits of being in Nashville is like, I get to see what people are experimenting with, what labels are dabbling in. And that's one of the reasons why I love being in a music city is I get to always be kind of on the trends if I want to participate in learning about that or, you know, networking with the right people.

[00:36:34] But that's what I see. I see a heavy focus on digital even more so beyond just. You know, put your song in Spotify. It's going to be put your song on Tik TOK with a dance already created and you know, a viral campaign. And once again, you know, if I'm an artist I'm going well, crap. I just want to make a good song, but unfortunately that's not, who's getting paid right now.

[00:36:55] That's not the people that labels are signing, whether or not you like that. Even independent [00:37:00] people like. And it being independent, people are breaking on Tik TOK, you know, right now, over and over again. And so that's, to me, you know, as an artist, whoever's out there, you need to be paying attention to once again, I'll say business people like wherever giant tech is investing into that trickles down, always into the entertainment and how we create art and how people consume art and how people consume our is how you get paid and noticed and how you manipulate attention.

[00:37:25] So, You've gotta be studying all of that constantly. If you want to keep up, otherwise you're going to get left behind and that's just kind of how the reality is. So that's, Sam's prediction of the future. You, you heard it here first. You heard it here. That's right. Uh, Sam, where can people find out more about you in your mastering studio?

[00:37:43] Yeah. Yeah, you can. Um, probably most importantly, find me on Instagram. Moses mastering is my Instagram. I do. I G T V videos. I don't sell anything. Uh, I will be selling my real book. I'll call it a real book eventually, but I do. [00:38:00] I GTV, I do, you know, you can follow along my daily kind of schedule what I'm up to.

[00:38:04] So most mastering on Instagram's private best, or you go to Moses bastard.com book session, you know, you can contact me and, and we'll get back with you within 24 hours or so, depending on workload, but. Those are the two main spots. Also, I have a podcast myself that's been going on for three we're in season four.

[00:38:24] Uh, the attack and release show it's me and another master engineer basically unpacking the life of post audio production and, um, kind of navigating the music industry and how to be a happy whole human while you do that. So there's. 80 episodes all hour plus long, you know, we covered at this stage almost every topic under the sun.

[00:38:43] And, um, it's a great resource. We kind of created it or I created it a bit selfishly in that I get asked a lot of questions all the time, and I love that. But. There's only so many hours in a day. So the podcast is kind of an extension of my brain on, on different things. I get asked all the time. [00:39:00] So there's way more in depth stuff about what is mastering, why is it important prep and mixes running your business, how to market, you know, loudness.

[00:39:09] We got a lot of episodes on loudness and why that's important and not important. So those would be the three spots, most mastering, most vaseline.com and then the attack and release show podcast. I think that's it. That's awesome. Well, Sam, thanks so much for sharing with us, Damien. We really appreciate you.

[00:39:26] Thanks for having me. Absolutely. And thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of the blue sky studios podcast. Have a great day, everyone. Bye.